Curse

Tekish · Apr 01, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

More specifically - fix the monk henchmen AI.

I've spent about 8 hours today trying to complete Thunderhead Keep for the 1,000th time. If you've recently spent more than 15 minutes playing this mission, you know of the pure frustration that can result from it and people who play it. So, let's just say, I'm frustrated.

Within those 8 hours, I tried to complete it twice with henchmen. Both of those times I lost at the very end due to some extremely unlucky and extremely frustrating circumstances. In both cases, the mission failure could have easily been avoided without a few key problems with henchmen AI.

The first obvious problem is the "run away from AOE damage" behavior, which was added a few months ago. While it didn't affect me so much in this mission, there have been many times where henchmen would run so far out of the AOE that they would aggro additional groups, quickly getting everyone killed. The opposite is also true. Henchmen will blindly follow enemies retreating from AOE damage - many times directly into additional enemy patrols. It's a stupid way to lose, and it happens more than it should.

The second issue and the one that I've noticed almost always brings down a group, is the monk resurrection priority. Both heal and prot monks suffer from this problem, and it's indescribably infuriating. Taking the time to use a signet in the middle of a battle is one thing, but spending 8 seconds ressing, and another 5 before it getting situated, is not ideal in any hostile situation. I can't even begin to express how annoying it is when there is one elementalist killing the King, and instead of healing him, both monks decide to fumble around with the hard res on the one and only dead teammate. I’ll let you guess what happened to the King.

Even the worst of monks can discern when the right time to heal is and when the right time to resurrect is. But this is an observational skill that the AI lacks, and in my opinion, it's a huge problem. If I didn't need to get this character past THK to cap elites so that I could use her in PvP, I wouldn't have even bothered going through this in the first place. That said, with each time I go through the PvE game I can see the henchmen behavior getting worse and worse. It's obvious that this isn't ArenaNet's intention, so hopefully these issues could be addressed before Factions' release. I may actually try to get back into PvE again they are.

Lets Get to Healing · Apr 01, 2006, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Guild groups FTW

lyric · Apr 01, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

maybe u shouldnt be afraid of human confrontation and get a group together instead of taking them idiot henchmen...

just a thought.

Tekish · Apr 01, 2006, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Well the sad part is, even with the defunct AI, the henchmen, for the most part, have gotten me farther than the 6 or so pugs I've played with today. But that's not the point of this thread.

While I opened the topic with my sour experience in THK, its real purpose is to point out these significant problems with the henchmen AI, just in case ANet wasn't already aware of them. I would have sent this information to them directly, but I've heard that they prefer this kind of stuff to be posted on fan forums - so, here it is.

lyric · Apr 01, 2006, 07:38 AM // 07:38

ah... i understand...

and i agree... i think out of all the henchies... alesia and mhenlo r the dumbest

Tsunami Rain · Apr 01, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

I'll be glad to fix the Henchmen AI for you. /sarcasm.

Murder In China · Apr 01, 2006, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Henchies > PUGs.

Leddy · Apr 01, 2006, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Tekish, if you can't pass Thunderhead Keep with henchies then you're not using the right strategy. To pass it with henchies you need to camp the steps near the king. If you're guarding the doors, you need to be in a PuG or guild group instead.

cuevas · Apr 01, 2006, 08:11 AM // 08:11

one time w/ henchies i died and the 2 healer henchies ran in circles trying to decide who was going to res me then they agrod a patrol and died.

Coolniceronguy · Apr 01, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Greater command over the henchies would be an inprovement.... say with hotkeys.

However, when it comes to THK, humans are usually your best option. I attempted it myself with my War/Mo teaming up with henchies, and had little difficulty, until we met up with the blue mursaat boss at the end. Since then I have reluctantly opted to try out humans. Lots of PUGs are really crappy, especially with that mission, but I completed it a few days ago with my mesmer on the first try.

Burton2000 · Apr 01, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Did it yesterday on my necro with henchmen.The key is never take the mage henchmen now due to the aoe update.Its much faster killing without.And you should carry a res sig and as soon as healer or prot dies res them.The only problem can be the monk boss but ive never had a chance to fight him with henchmen.

Brutal · Apr 01, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

An old guildmate of mine was having difficulty completing this mission so I helped him along with henchies to round out the group. Camp the top of the steps in front of the king and kill the bosses last after all others have been taken care of.

Anyway, back on topic, I totally agree with what you have said about henchy AI as it does appear to be getting worse. I usually find that clicking an area on the ground to kind of create a rally point often brings the henchies back when the decide to be heroes and go off chasing fleeing enemies.
As for the ressing thing......this is a major AI fux up. When ingame with my W/N I have died first and the monk henchies just run in a line criss-crossing each other. The rest of the henchies finally defeated the enemy whilst I went off to make a cuppa. When I came back after five minutes or so I was still dead with the monks still doing their running workout.
Next step = F12 and off to take my frustration out on others with extreme violence in some FPS fun.

The Oblivion Knight · Apr 01, 2006, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Maybe Arena.net can add commands on the keyboard to control the henchmen, such as when you're playing a FPS game with a squad of A.I allies. The only trouble I see with this is that the keyboard won't have enough room for all the commands.

Omnidragon42 · Apr 01, 2006, 10:46 AM // 10:46

ok, I fixed it. Try again in about 30 mins.

Coolniceronguy · Apr 01, 2006, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Oblivion Knight

Maybe Arena.net can add commands on the keyboard to control the henchmen, such as when you're playing a FPS game with a squad of A.I allies. The only trouble I see with this is that the keyboard won't have enough room for all the commands.

There are a number of actions which are not assigned by default. Henchie commands could be like these, added in at your own discretion.

Tarkin · Apr 01, 2006, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyric

maybe u shouldnt be afraid of human confrontation and get a group together instead of taking them idiot henchmen...

just a thought.

The good points

henchmans dont pee.
henchmans dont screen "heal me", "rez me", "i wielding the best and expensive weapows of game and you nothing".
henchmans skip cutscenes.
hench monks heal fast as a lighting.
if you call target in someone the henchman will atack who you target.
henchman are more smart that a lot of players i kown...
henchman have better skills bars that a lot of human players and kown how use that skills
henchman dont quit

The bad points

henchman monks agroo stupidly to rez someone dead
the twice henchman monks (new bug i start to see it a few months ago) try to rez the same dead person.

Yes, human players are better tham henchs... but not ever...

Tarkin · Apr 01, 2006, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brutal

As for the ressing thing......this is a major AI fux up. When ingame with my W/N I have died first and the monk henchies just run in a line criss-crossing each other. The rest of the henchies finally defeated the enemy whilst I went off to make a cuppa. When I came back after five minutes or so I was still dead with the monks still doing their running workout.

Tip: If you die or other hench die... try to select you in party window and click twice... sometimes the hench will rush very fast and rez you or the dead hench... look that not coincidence... the monk will rush to rez, but in some cases the monks will ignore the call for rez
Tip2: You can command henchs even though died, you can call target... again sometimes all henchs will atack the same target, but in others will ignore you...

Silent Kitty · Apr 01, 2006, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarkin

The good points

henchmans dont pee.
henchmans dont screen "heal me", "rez me", "i wielding the best and expensive weapows of game and you nothing".
henchmans skip cutscenes.
hench monks heal fast as a lighting.
if you call target in someone the henchman will atack who you target.
henchman are more smart that a lot of players i kown...
henchman have better skills bars that a lot of human players and kown how use that skills
henchman dont quit

The bad points

henchman monks agroo stupidly to rez someone dead
the twice henchman monks (new bug i start to see it a few months ago) try to rez the same dead person.

Yes, human players are better tham henchs... but not ever...

/signed

Henchmen don't mind if you don't heal them.
Henchmen don't spam "My health is 1 out of 2"
Henchmen don't try to chit chat in the middle of a fight.
Hench men don't mind if you go afk for five minutes.

I always manage to call the hench men at a target, and they'll take it out with pinpoint presicion. All the henchmen need is a little more health, less noobish skills and better armour

Hockster · Apr 01, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

The only AoE in THK is from Cynn. Anyone ever using a hench ele deserves to lose.

Tekish · Apr 01, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Actually, I'm beginning to think that with the AI glitches aside, my not bringing the mage hench is what's causing the inevitable loss as the boss just prior to the confessor. The henchies can't seem to do enough damage if that boss happens to be a monk or a warrior, and if you ignore them, your hench party will most likely die from warrior pressure or straight up attrition. And once one person in the party dies, you already know its all over, unless you have an unused res sig.

It obviously shouldn't be this way. I personally liked it better when henchmen didn't res until every enemy around them was dead. This placed resurrection duties squarely on your shoulders, and unless you yourself died, it was never a problem. In the event that you did die, most times the hench group would finish off the enemy and then res you. Now, with the broken AI, monks will quickly run over to res you at the cost of 2 or 3 of your teammates. If someone else did die during the res process, the monks will immediately run over to them and repeat the same behavior. All the while, people are dying left and right and there's not a heal to be seen. It's the kind of thing that causes you to do a double take and question whether or not that really just happened.